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LOTR talk:Merge Vote
Page locked Well, we're being invited to register to vote, but we can't, as the page is edit-locked. ?? -- Mithrennaith 23:15, 23 May 2008 (UTC) of Tolkien Gateway :Odd, worked fine for me... --Hyarion 04:19, 24 May 2008 (UTC) ::The page is only locked so unregistered users can't vote, so the only thing I can suggest is making sure that you're logged on.-- 09:46, 24 May 2008 (UTC) :Can't edit content page. Register- --Theoden1 18:21, 24 May 2008 (UTC) of the Tolkien Gateway. :::Sorry - I have a feeling that you have to be a registered user for a least 10 days or something, therefore I've unlocked the page fully.-- 18:28, 24 May 2008 (UTC) Voting discussion I'm guessing the first vote will be which wiki to move to. For such an important decision it might be a good idea to allow both sides to post Pros/Cons listing the benefits and downsides of moving to a particular wiki. We could also allow people to post reasons they might prefer a certain wiki prior to the vote so we could reply with resolutions to the problem. --Hyarion 04:24, 24 May 2008 (UTC) :Well I thought it would be good to first vote on whether a merge should happen at all; then we'll vote for which wiki to move to. But ye, I agree with the ideas above.-- 09:46, 24 May 2008 (UTC) ::I see your point, my concern is that there there are more people like Robin Patterson who aren't familiar with both wikis. Maybe we should treat it like merging two companies, before people can vote on whether the merge is beneficial they need to know about the pros/cons the merge would have, so maybe that is what we should list first, then the next step would be listing the pros/cons of the different wikis. --Hyarion 17:07, 24 May 2008 (UTC) :::Consider me the mirror image of Robin Patterson, for the sake of this discussion. Until two days ago I knew nothing about this place. People like him and me will need some time to look over the wiki we don't know and get the feel of it. A list of pros and cons by some of the more active people on either side who also know their way about the other wiki would be welcome. :::Some more thought on how to organise discussion and voting also is in order I think. I quite agree with Earendilyon over on TG asking about "what, how, when and why". I think it will matter to quite a few people in what way the merger will be effected, e.g. under what name and at what site, but also what the agreements and differences of policy are, and how these will be developed and settled. The answers to questions like that may very well affect what their position on the point of merger. :::It reminds me of what someone said when a group of student societies in the Netherlands were debating changing the structure of their co-opereration: "Do we get into the boat first and then see whether it leaks, or do we do it the other way round?" We might try doing it both ways: have a non-committal poll about the basic idea of merger first, if that turns out to be favourable discuss ways and means, maybe voting on a few points, and finally have a binding vote on going through with it. And before any binding vote we will have to settle what quorum and majority we will need, in both communities and overall. -- Mithrennaith 23:56, 24 May 2008 (UTC) ::::Excellent point, I guess then that we should start discussing the pros and cons here - would you like me to delay the vote?-- 10:21, 25 May 2008 (UTC) :::::I can only speak for myself and would prefer to have some opinions from others on this, but yes, I would. Or alternatively you could keep the original starting date for a straw poll, but that should have a shorter duration. -- Mithrennaith 22:30, 25 May 2008 (UTC) Tolkien Gateway? Maybe one of the people talking about the Tolkien Gateway could tell the rest of us what and where it is. Robin Patterson 12:09, 24 May 2008 (UTC) :The Tolkien Gateway is another Lord of the Rings based encylopedia, it is located here. The reasons behind the proposed merge is that we are trying the achieve the same thing.-- 13:01, 24 May 2008 (UTC) ::Thank you. Same license, same software, same scope - yes, a merger should be ideal in principle. But Wikia, Inc, can't be expected to close this site, so there's only one way a complete merger is likely to go. I prefer the name "Tolkien Gateway". Robin Patterson 02:16, 25 May 2008 (UTC) Wiki to migrate to Feel free to add/edit any bulleted statements reasoning why the communities should migrate to the specific wiki. Benefits of Tolkien Gateway * Tolkien Gateway is a non-profit organization vs. the One Wiki is for profit, all profits go to Wikia and the community does not see any of it. * No advertisements vs. multiple advertisements on every page. * The name "Tolkien Gateway" vs. "One Wiki to Rule Them All" ;) but that's more opinion. * Tolkien Gateway owns our own server so we have root access and can install anything we need as well as setup other websites. Not aware of any access at all for the One Wiki as servers are controlled by Wikia. * Tolkien Gateway provides web hosting and chat hosting for various Tolkien societies and websites which need it. * Other projects related but not limited to the wiki such as TolkienNews.net (soon to be incorporated into the wiki), TolkienQuotes.net (version 2.0 about to be released), Tolkien Map (recently released), etc. * Work with various other international Tolkien communities including the three other largest Tolkien wikis: Kontu, Ardapedia, and Tolkiendil. * Tolkien gateway runs the largest IRC Chat Network dedicated to Tolkien with around 40-50 people online in the lobby on average. * Giveaways and events such as The Children of Hurin Release Party which included over a dozen guest speakers/companies and thousands of dollars in prizes. * Founded in 2003, not only older than the One Wiki, but older than the Wikia company itself. * 62,696 edits vs. Unknown at this time * 6,664 articles at Tolkien Gateway vs. 2,948 at the One Wiki * 4,272 images at Tolkien Gateway vs. 918 at the One Wiki. * Almost all of Tolkien Gateway's images are licensed for non-profit use and are non-transferable to Wikia. Most Tolkien artists also only allow usage for non-profit sites. * Several skins, including Tolkien inspired and the original Monobook. * Over 7.5 million page views vs. Unknown at this time * 5,000-10,000 visits a day and 100,000 hits a day vs. Unknown at this time * I've noticed most of the editors at One Wiki tend to come and go, this worries me as there is a lack of stability when it comes to watching over the wiki. A lot of spam/fanon/copyrighted material slips past unnoticed. KingAragorn and TheGreyPilgrim are the most active and have 825 and 270 main namespace edits respectively. This is quite a bit different from TG where the most active editor has 15,272 main namespace edits and and there are more than a half dozen who have several thousand. Notes: I was unable to gather some stats due to the table linked to on is broken. Benefits of the One Wiki to Rule them All *Wikia will not allow this site to redirect to the Tolkien Gateway. But Wikia staff can easily migrate images, articles and users onto this wiki. *The wiki uses a classic wiki template, which many people are familiar with. *The One Wiki to Rule them All gives users the chance to become admins, so responsibility can be shared. *This wiki has featured articles that rotate daily, and not a permanent featured article. This is on top of the collaboration of the month. *This wiki is supported by the larger Wikia community (300,000 active editors + janitors + Community Team), but independent in determining local policies and practices. *Server space and bandwidth is free, no matter how large the wiki grows or how much traffic it attracts. *Multiple spam-prevention tools stop most spam before it reaches Recent changes. *Supports multiple languages with interwiki links -- currently hosting Russian, Italian, Finnish, German, and Spanish versions of LOTR. *Stable servers with a full-time ops team to watch for outages or slow performance. *Wikia's tech team keeps up to date with the latest MediaWiki software version and a wide variety of useful extensions; no maintenance headaches. *Many additional extensions are available on request, and new ones can be suggested at any time. *Wikia promotes wikis internally (running spotlight ads for LOTR on other Wikia projects, such as WoWWiki and Wookiepedia) and externally (mentions in press releases, interviews with founder Jimmy Wales, etc) *Daily database backups *IRC chat channels Comments *Some these points seem to twist the truth somewhat - for example this wiki was founded in March 2005, whereas the tolkien gateway wiki was founded in June 2005. Also the comparisons made also seem to twist things to make a point in your favour - boiling down to numbers, comparing it with a ‘?’ really makes this wiki seem inferior. If this wiki closes down it will make every contributor who has made those 2,948 pages, (which was made to seem very inferior) lose there work and acknowledgement of their work - "lack of stability" futrher demeans their work! This vote is not fair and the merge has become stupid! :::64.85.160.49, those links don't go anywhere for me, but I understand you wanted to point out the information that is essentially in this OW diff and this TG diff. You might also have looked at TG's 'About'-page before taking Hyarion to task for twisting the truth. And with the info given there, one might take a look at some pages from the Wayback Machine. Unfortunately the spamfilter here is blocking my link to the Wayback for the oldest domain name of TG (tolkiengateway.cjb.net/) for no visible good reason. -- Mithrennaith 17:02, 4 June 2008 (UTC) :Please feel free to register/login as we're trying to keep the votes to current members of both communities, but your feedback is still appreciated. After reading some of the points over again I do agree they don't seem very neutral, I'll try to remove the opinions and neutralize the statements, feel free to change any wordings you see fit. Tolkien Gateway was founded in January 2003, we switched to the MediaWiki software in June 2005. The question marks are because I was unable to find the relevant statistics on the One Wiki as Wikia moves the stats to another page which is currently not found, but once we get them we can insert the correct values. Or if you prefer we can change the question marks to "Not available at this time" or something, I wasn't sure what to put as I think the size of the wiki and activity is relevant for deciding which to merge to. 3,000 articles is by no means inferior, but when merging we have to look at the big picture, do we move the smaller wiki to the larger one or the larger one to the smaller one? Thanks for your input! --Hyarion 19:14, 27 May 2008 (UTC) ::Wow! lol! I have to agree on some levels with your comment but then i'm clearly biased. I think maybe the more opinion based and slightly irrelevant points should be modified (i.e. the whole wikia is a for-profit organisation has nothing to do with the encyclopedia), as for the numbers I've fixed the link to wikia stats on our stats page. I can tell this discussion is really splitting opinions. -- 19:30, 27 May 2008 (UTC) :::I just want to clarify one thing... This wiki will not be shutting down or redirecting to another wiki. If this wiki was shut down, it wouldn't be fair to the contributors who have built the wiki to this point, and it also wouldn't be fair to future Wikia users who want a Lord of the Rings wiki on Wikia. :::Obviously, people are welcome to visit and contribute to any wiki they want. It's also possible to copy content from one wiki to another, with a link back to the source. But I want to make sure that people understand that this wiki isn't going to redirect to another wiki, no matter what the results are of this discussion. :::That being said, I'd be happy to help with any of the aspects related to the merge -- merging content or user databases. Also, if there are things about this wiki that people aren't happy with, then I'd be happy to work with the community on solving problems and building up the site. -- Danny (talk) 19:35, 27 May 2008 (UTC) ::::KingAragorn: :) Actually I think the Wikia being for-profit is one of the most important aspects. A lot of our editors enjoy contributing because they know someone else isn't profiting from their hard work. Almost all of our artwork has been contributed under the condition that our site is not for profit, we would not be able to use those images here, even the most popular Tolkien artists have this clause. We also work with the Tolkien Society on various things such as Amon Hen and Mallorn journals under the condition that we are not for profit. With Tolkien Gateway the community owns the content and we can do whatever we want with it, and as Danny points out, Wikia owns this content and the community does not. --Hyarion 20:05, 27 May 2008 (UTC) :::::Actually, Wikia doesn't own the content... Wikia uses a GFDL license, so the original authors retain the rights to the content that they create. In practical terms, that means that the community as a whole "owns" the wiki. :::::That's why I'm saying we can't shut this wiki down, and redirect or delete all of the old content. That would be a violation of our responsibility to the wiki's contributors. It's important to Wikia as a community to keep the content that's been created open and accessible, so that everyone can use it. -- Danny (talk) 22:04, 27 May 2008 (UTC) ::::::Right now the two communities are just discussing whether a merge is even worth it, if we choose to merge elsewhere Wikia is free to do whatever they like with the content. I'm a little confused why there are no problems with Tolkien Gateway deleting/redirecting content to Wikia but Wikia would have a problem if they had to do so. I appreciate your input though, if we come to a conclusion and require some technical answers you're the one to talk to and we'll let you know. Thanks. --Hyarion 23:14, 27 May 2008 (UTC) Hyarion's responses Hi guys, it's hard to keep this organized so I'm going to try and just list the recently added statements and my responses here instead of messing with the original section where they are posted. Feel free to respond or re-organize how you see fit. TheGreyPilgrim, definitely let us know what you're thinking as you're probably the current most active contributor and your opinion means a lot. --Hyarion 00:36, 29 May 2008 (UTC) *Wikia will not allow this site to redirect to the Tolkien Gateway. But Wikia staff can easily migrate images, articles and users onto this wiki. ::Wikia has stated it wouldn't be fair to shut down/redirect their own content but encourages content to be shut down/redirected to them. This seems a bit contradictory. If the community moves elsewhere then of course Wikia will be free to do with the content what they wish. *The wiki uses a classic wiki template, which many people are familiar with. ::Tolkien Gateway also uses the classic Monobook skin, however we offer several other alternatives including Tolkien-inspired skins. I'm not sure giving users less choices is positive. *The One Wiki to Rule them All gives users the chance to become admins, so responsibility can be shared. ::I'm not aware of Tolkien Gateway not allowing any user the chance to become an admin...? I did notice several users on the One Wiki had to have their powers taken away as they had become inactive. TG has never had to do this as we make sure prior to becoming an admin is respected by the entire community and active for an extended period of time. *This wiki has featured articles that rotate daily, and not a permanent featured article. This is on top of the collaboration of the month. ::At Tolkien Gateway we vote on the best and highest quality articles to become featured, we do not rotate them automatically. I noticed, as far as I saw, all of the One Wiki featured articles were just mirrors of Wikipedia's version. *Server space and bandwidth is free, no matter how large the wiki grows or how much traffic it attracts. ::Server space and bandwidth is never free. The One Wiki pays for it by giving all of their required advertisement revenue directly to Wikia. Tolkien Gateway does not advertise and is funded for life by a select few generous donors. *Multiple spam-prevention tools stop most spam before it reaches Recent changes. ::Tolkien Gateway also uses captchas and as far as I've noticed over the last few years receives even less spam than Wikia. *Supports multiple languages with interwiki links -- currently hosting Russian, Italian, Finnish, German, and Spanish versions of LOTR. ::TG works with the largest and most active international wikis including Kontu, Tolkiendil, and Ardapedia. With the exception of the de.lotr.wikia.com, the other languages seem to be exctinct and display no results in Recent changes. However with the flexibility of inter-wiki links, it doesn't matter where the international wiki is hosted, or even the software, as we can still utilize the inter-wiki linking between the sites. *Stable servers with a full-time ops team to watch for outages or slow performance. ::Stable servers seem to imply Tolkien Gateway servers are not stable and do not have 24/7 monitoring...? *Many additional extensions are available on request, and new ones can be suggested at any time. ::Same goes for TG. *Daily database backups ::Same goes for TG. *IRC chat channels ::Wikia has a channel on Freenode. At Tolkien Gateway we run our own IRC network dedicated to Tolkien with hosting for various websites, events, trivia games, etc. I am beginning to see this discussion as pointless if it were to continue; there is only one way the merge will be allowed to go and Hyarion is continually trying to convince us that this site should be merged with the Tolkien Gateway. Therefore two options remain, either the Tolkien Gateway is to merge with , or this site can 'work' with the Tolkien Gateway to merge the two projects with out moving any content (possible promoting the other site).-- 11:03, 29 May 2008 (UTC) :I'm going to have to agree with KingAragorn, I was hoping we could get some more input from the communities but unfortunately it seems to be me vs. Wikia who both seem to have already made our decisions :). As Danny has pointed out, it isn't fair to the contributors to delete/redirect any content. So let's look at this another way, what if we were to merge the communities and not move the content, e.g. Tolkien Gateway editors move here and leave the content behind or the One Wiki editors move to TG and leave their content behind. So I guess the first question is which articles does the One Wiki have that Tolkien Gateway doesn't, and which ones are high quality, and visa versa. The last thing we want to do is force any kind of merge, but I just hate to think of editors spending even more time working redundantly against another community on the exact same thing when working together we could accomplish the same thing twice as fast. Thanks for your input KingAragorn. --Hyarion 22:42, 29 May 2008 (UTC) ::In my view the fact the merger will only be allowed to go one way shows exactly what the problem is. It implies that the Wikia organisation does not see Tolkien Gateway as an equal partner. As, on content and extra value, Tolkien Gateway at this moment looks very much the major partner, that is quite some chutzpah. It also shows where One Wiki's independence ends, and what 'moral' price is paid for the so-called free hosting. Under these circumstances I would be against any merger. ::Now, although I know TG for some time, I have only recently become actively involved, to some extent. So it's not my call to say what TG should or should not do or accept. There are many people who have put lots more time and effort into TG, and they should have the greater voice in this. But my position is simple: I like what I see on TG, I want to try to become more involved in it, time allowing. I have not yet come to like what I see here, I have already come to dislike that typing this contribution feels like wading through molasses, presumably because of the thrash that Wikia dumps on my system together with the One Wiki content. So if TG were to merge onto Wikia, I would stop trying to be involved, since it would be an inefficient use of my time. I would vote with my feet. -- Mithrennaith 02:17, 4 June 2008 (UTC) :::Oh, I finally saw that I have been requested! So much for looking at everything... Anyway, right now we're at a stalemate. It wouldn't feel right if TG merged into the One Wiki, seeing as it has basically triple the amount of articles, and has been worked on for an excess of 5 years. If TG suddenly moved somewhere and lost rights to their content, it would not be fair at all. However, since Wikia won't allow us to redirect, neither way will work out. My opinion is that the One Wiki's best editors will move to TG, and new people can then come to this site and take their place. If this is contrary to Wikia, a gut feeling of mine tells me that the merge would be all but impossible. :::After looking at the response about the featured article, I've come to the conclusion we just got electronically slapped upside the face. I've never taken the time to compare them to Wikipedia's version, and all of those articles were made before I came. If this merge doesn't work out, I think we need to revamp them. :::As for the rest of the responses, let's just say they tilt me even further in TG's direction. I think we should use the "best editor" strategy, and let the One Wiki go from there. We've had a few people that popped out of nowhere in the last few months and had massive contributions. I was, in a sense, one of them. I'll go where this takes me, but I'll use that account I put on Tolkien Gateway either way. 15:59, 4 June 2008 (UTC) ::::Indeed there’s a clear stalemate! The merge is not going to happen as initially proposed, so I would like to give you my view. For the majority of this year I haven't contributed very much, however I do check the recent changes everyday. I've become a user who simply checks for vandalism, joins in discussions where I can, and who performs general maintenance tasks. For the foreseeable future I see no reason why I should stop doing this each day. TheGreyPilgrim has suggested that the “better users” of this Wiki move and help with the Tolkien Gateway project; the only way I would move is if I were to become an admin on the TG and continue if not increase my level of contributions, however I see the impractical side to the fact that I have never really contributed to the TG and therefore why should I become a Sysop on it? Anyway this is my position, I’ve so far enjoyed being an admin here especially for many of the reasons why I requested to become a sysop. I would particularly enjoy it if I could transfer my experience and help contribute within the larger community on the Tolkien Gateway.-- 16:33, 4 June 2008 (UTC) Hi guys -- There seems to be a little confusion about what Wikia will allow or not, so I'll try to clarify. The only way that Wikia is involved in the discussion is to say that we can't close this wiki down. We're not going to redirect the URL, or post something on the main page telling readers to go away. Individual users (or groups of users) can obviously make their own decisions about where they want to contribute. Everybody is welcome to contribute to One Wiki, Tolkien Gateway, or both. All of the content here is under a free license, so content can be copied to another GFDL-licensed site, with links back to the original page. Similarly, if editors from Tolkien Gateway choose to contribute here, they're very welcome. Tolkien Gateway is also under a GFDL license, so content can be copied from TG to here, with appropriate links back. The folks who run Tolkien Gateway are free to make whatever choice they want about what to do with their site and their URL. So I'm a little confused about the "moral" problem that's been mentioned... Everybody involved is free to make their own choices about their participation and their content. The only boundary that Wikia is placing on the process is to say that this content will remain open and accessible to everyone. Editors can decide to contribute here or not, as usual. The wiki will always be here for them whenever they want it. -- Danny (talk) 16:59, 4 June 2008 (UTC)